The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

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Stratofreighter
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The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by Stratofreighter »

Paid subscription, so I cannot link directly...

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... ost5829852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Royal Air Force and the Navy are locked in a dogfight to save their fast jets after a decision by the National Security Council to scrap either the RAF’s Tornado fleet or the Navy’s Harriers.

The decision to sharply reduce Britain’s 215 aircraft fleet was one of several made at an “Away Day” meeting of the security council on Saturday as part of the Strategic Defence Review.
It is expected that the review will cut between 10 and 20 per cent of Britain’s defence capability.

“It has come down to either Harrier or Tornado,” a Ministry of Defence source said, insisting that “no decision on which will go has yet been made”.

Another senior source said: “The issue is this: one fast jet fleet has to be taken out of service ASAP, full stop.”

Ministers are also expected to consider the long-term storage of tanks and artillery, the closure of several bases, the sale of Ministry of Defence housing assets, and cuts of up to 25,000 servicemen across the three services to recoup billions of pounds by 2015.

Scrapping the RAF’s 132-strong Tornado fleet, seven squadrons, could claw back up to £3 billion.
The aircraft, which were designed in the early 1970s, are due to remain in service, with service-life-extension upgrades, until 2025.

The RAF is understood to be strongly in favour of shelving the much smaller “Joint Force Harrier”.
This includes 36 RAF and Navy Fleet Air Arm Harrier GR9 aircraft, in three frontline squadrons and one training squadron.
Scrapping the Harriers would save approximately £1 billion but would leave Britain without any aircraft-carrier-borne capability.

With the two services battling to retain cherished assets, senior naval sources accuse the RAF of providing misleading data on the success of the Tornado since the aircraft took over from the Harrier in Afghanistan last year.
They also claim that the aircraft has been less durable in harsh Afghan conditions, with two Tornados lost to systems failures in the past year.

“We are well versed in the Harrier guys’ arguments,” a senior RAF source said.
“The feedback we are getting is that the Tornado is performing better than the Harrier did in Afghanistan and this is leaving the Harriers feeling particularly vulnerable.”

The RAF has been keen to claim success for the Tornado in a reconnaissance role in Afghanistan, where it has been fitted with the Raptor surveillance pod.
Another well-placed source told The Times that scrapping the Tornado was “finding favour” with ministers.
The RAF is expected to seek to redevelop the Eurofighter Typhoon jet to provide a ground-attack capability from 2015 onwards.
This would occupy some of the space left if the Tornado were scrapped.

However, the final calculation will be swayed by the much larger question of whether Britain continues to build the two Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers that were signed off by the Labour government and are likely to cost £6 billion.

“Buying the carriers means keeping the Harrier,” a source said. However, the carriers were “not yet safe” as the “eye-watering” costs of the programme became clearer.

Britain also has an order for 138 American-built Joint Strike Fighters to fly from the new carriers.
The order, estimated to be worth £10 billion, is expected to be significantly reduced under the Strategic Defence Review."
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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by Hurricane »

:wave: Harrier then ... However in the end they will both be gone so that might lead to Typhoons for ever :evil:

It seems tricky as the Tornado performs better (they might refuse to mention that the Harrier is more complex as a system due to het unique concept) but the Harrier seems to be better of use for close combat operations from the carriers (otherwise they will be jet-less untill the JSF kicks in, whenever that might be).

Neverless the conclusion, it remains a sad day in British Aviation; that's for sure.
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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by K-9 »

Well stopping the small harrier force, which has been cut already in the past. Would mean the carrier(s) they have at this moment can also be taken out of service.
Perhaps some of the Merlins can be retrofitted in order to let the SeaKing be taken out of service asap. How many money would be saved ?
Some of the Tornado's can also be placed into storage, certainly if they are to fly until 2025...
At least 2 air force bases could then be closed and one naval.
And if the UK will stop to be a sort of worldpolice ( together with the americans... ), even more can be taken out of service. But thats just my honest opinion.

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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by SquAdmin »

K-9 wrote:Well stopping the small harrier force, which has been cut already in the past. Would mean the carrier(s) they have at this moment can also be taken out of service.
Looks like it:
Scrapping the Harriers would save approximately £1 billion but would leave Britain without any aircraft-carrier-borne capability.
It doesn't sound very logical to keep the carriers after the Harriers are axed. Personally, I doubt if the new Elizabeth class carriers will ever be built if they choose to do this. New ships and F-35B's won't come cheap and by the time they would enter service, Britain will already be used to living without significant naval air power.
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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by ehusmann »

SquAdmin wrote:
Scrapping the Harriers would save approximately £1 billion but would leave Britain without any aircraft-carrier-borne capability.
It doesn't sound very logical to keep the carriers after the Harriers are axed. Personally, I doubt if the new Elizabeth class carriers will ever be built if they choose to do this. New ships and F-35B's won't come cheap and by the time they would enter service, Britain will already be used to living without significant naval air power.
My thought exactly. Not only would they be without the naval air power, they would also loose all knowledge and expertise. If they cut it now they will be close to 10 years (?) without carriers, most of the people working on it will be retired by then (at least deck personnel). That means they will need to retrain everything. Not a very wise choice if you ask me...
But, stranger things have happened.

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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by K-9 »

The other thing one could question...
Why would the UK need Naval Air Power ? I believe in Afghanistan, harriers were land based and also flew to their operating location, using tanker support. Regarding air power, a tornado can bring a bigger punch than a harrier and it is less complex to maintain and train personel on. With the current available arsenal of naval weapons, small nations no longer need small carriers.

One can easily save several billions in short and on longer terms.
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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by Richard from Rotterdam »

Apart from being able to project some form of "global power" they still have a few islands to defend like the Falklands...
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Re: The Times: "either Tornado or Harriers fleet is to be axed"

Post by ehusmann »

Afghanistan is land locked and the coalition has enough territory to have land based units. Land based units are cheaper to operate and safer, so if you can, you will. However, the Falklands would no longer be UK territory if they didn´t have carriers in the 1980s. Carriers are also a big threat and are important for the UK to defend all their overseas territories. They still have many islands like the Falklands which they could not defend (or better, recapture) without strong naval forces.

Erwin
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